24. From DJ Bumping TUNES to IP Protection Lawyer: Shana Fried on Music, Life, and Law

[00:00:09] Bobby Steinbach:

Welcome to Hot Docket, the show where we talk about winning marketing strategies that have built the most successful law firms.

[00:00:14] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Join us every two weeks for the latest trends and tactics to grow your law firm.

[00:00:19] Bobby Steinbach:

Hey everybody, and welcome to the Hot Docket podcast. Today we have with us a very special client. I’d call her a friend of mine at this point, Shayna Freed. Shana, thanks for joining.

[00:00:30] Shana Fried:

Happy to be here, friend.

[00:00:37] Bobby Steinbach:

Oh, friend. I got a friend in return. That makes me feel all good inside. Um, Shana is one of those cool lawyers.

[00:00:43] Bobby Steinbach:

And I, I mean that honestly, in like the best way. Law doesn’t have to be stuffy. Law can be fun. Law can be interesting. And I think Shana makes it that way. So I like to just start with like a couple of quick fire questions. Shoot them at you. And, uh, I know, uh, you’re a lawyer. Some of these you’re going to have the impulse to expand on it, and that’s natural, as much as possible, try and give the quickest answer you can.

[00:01:06] Shana Fried:

Gotcha.

[00:01:07] Bobby Steinbach:

Alright, first one. Biggest mistake most firms make.

[00:01:11] Shana Fried:

Oh, being boring? I don’t know. That’s my answer.

[00:01:14] Bobby Steinbach:

That’s fair.

[00:01:15] Andrew Nasrinpay:

What’s the single hardest thing about law firm marketing?

[00:01:20] Shana Fried:

Trying to differentiate yourself from other law firms.

[00:01:23] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Great answer.

[00:01:24] Bobby Steinbach:

On that, on that note, uh, what’s the best slash most differentiated firm you’ve seen?

[00:01:29] Shana Fried:

I’m not good at firms. I’m going to go with mine. Thanks. That’s a good answer too.

[00:01:36] Andrew Nasrinpay:

If you had to give three golden rules of marketing, what would they be?

[00:01:42] Bobby Steinbach:

Just, just to like clarify there, it does not have to be like a global three. It’s like your three. What are the three most important things to you?

[00:01:49] Shana Fried:

Uh, okay.

[00:01:49] Shana Fried:

Uh, relevance. Um, sophistication to a certain extent, and accessibility.

[00:01:56] Bobby Steinbach:

And why is marketing important?

[00:01:59] Shana Fried:

Uh, because otherwise people don’t know who you are. Unless you have a lot of friends.

[00:02:03] Bobby Steinbach:

If you weren’t a lawyer, what would you be?

[00:02:05] Shana Fried:

A DJ.

[00:02:07] Bobby Steinbach:

You’re right, you, you, and you got to be a lawyer and a DJ.

[00:02:10] Shana Fried:

I did, I did.

[00:02:11] Shana Fried:

I know there was a, there was a pivotal moment. I’ll stop, I know, quickfire. But there was, I could have gone either way, like, for real, for real.

[00:02:17] Bobby Steinbach:

Well, the quick fire is over. We can expand on it. I think it’s actually like a good kind of segue for you to talk about your journey into law because I’ve had so many conversations with you.

[00:02:28] Bobby Steinbach:

And I know what an unconventional path you had, but I think it’d be interesting for everybody else to hear it.

[00:02:33] Shana Fried:

Awesome. Yeah. Um, cool. So yes, I definitely feel like I, uh, was very unconventional from the beginning. My, my beginnings were. Not clear as to whether or not I even wanted to be an attorney. It felt like a good progression into, further into the music industry, which is what I had already done.

[00:02:53] Shana Fried:

So I had a background in music business, I worked at record labels, I managed artists, I had been DJing for a while, and I had been doing creative things, sort of left and right. But I felt a little stuck, a little stagnated, and I wanted a little bit more of an intellectual challenge. Uh, and I decided to go to law school at that time, for some reason.

[00:03:13] Shana Fried:

And, um, I show up to law school, and I had, I think it was white, like really platinum blonde, and black mohawk. It was really a faux hawk, right? It was like 2004, so it was like really a faux hawk, it wasn’t really a mohawk, but. Yes, I totally stuck out like the biggest sore thumb, but I loved it too. I kind of was just like, I don’t belong here, and I’m okay with that.

[00:03:35] Shana Fried:

Uh, luckily I had a couple folks approach me and, and, you know, I want to be your friend, kind of thing, which was great. And some of my closest friends today. Um, but I carried out throughout law school, super curious, super interested, definitely knowing, knowing what I wanted to do. I, I knew I was interested in intellectual property, I was interested in, uh, you know, copyrights, trademarks, transactional work, because anything that related to what I expected I would continue to do in my career in the entertainment industry.

[00:04:02] Shana Fried:

Uh, never expected in a million years that I’d get so So deep into corporate law. I never realized how important it was in what I do. But I will say that I went through law school, things were going great, and I had this moment where I I took this really introspective journey. I was, I was in Barcelona And I was on the beach.

[00:04:24] Shana Fried:

Barcelona. Barcelona, excuse me. And I, and I sat there and I just, I really had this like deep thing where I was like, I could drop everything and really go in. And this is Okay, just to give you guys some context of, especially like with electronic music and DJs and stuff. So this is like two thousand, I want to say eight or nine.

[00:04:46] Shana Fried:

So just imagine had I gone on that path. Imagine, just recall what happened in like the early teens. Especially with like music like dubstep and like there was a, there was this massive, massive explosion of electronic music. To where you’re hearing it on the radio that never really existed to that extent.

[00:05:05] Shana Fried:

Unfortunately. Before that wave, I decided to stick with the law, because it felt like, you know, A, I incurred a bunch of debt with my loans, and B, it was like, ah, you know, I have this knowledge, should probably use it. But that was when I, uh, I made the decision to not dedicate myself entirely to being a DJ.

[00:05:23] Shana Fried:

But, you know, I could be having a residency in Ibiza right now, but instead I’m hanging out with you guys, so. I don’t know, I think I’m happier. Yeah, you win. And

[00:05:31] Bobby Steinbach:

like, how many people say I should have bought Bitcoin. You know, we had a guy we worked with at Morgan, uh, Noah, who had a fame. His story was that he paid a pizza guy.

[00:05:41] Bobby Steinbach:

He paid a guy 80 Bitcoin for pizza back in like 2009 and it’s like, okay, well that’s, you know, 80 times 50, 000 now 55, 000. So

[00:05:51] Shana Fried:

expensive pizza, expensive

[00:05:52] Bobby Steinbach:

pizza. You know, you can’t look back, I think and make those types of retrospective decisions. I think he did. You made the right decision at the end.

[00:05:59] Shana Fried:

Yeah, I mean, for

[00:06:00] Bobby Steinbach:

your circumstance,

[00:06:01] Shana Fried:

somehow I’m still doing it.

[00:06:02] Shana Fried:

So, yeah, and

[00:06:04] Andrew Nasrinpay:

I think that it brings a level of authenticity to your brand where when you were talking about the most important thing being your differentiation and a lot of times the differentiation is the actual attorney because the attorney is the brand and I I don’t think there’s any other way you could work with creatives without being one yourself.

[00:06:24] Shana Fried:

Yeah. Yeah I mean, I’m sure there’s plenty of folks that do Um, but unfortunately I, I, my biggest concern has been a lot of those folks just take advantage of the creatives because they don’t speak the same language. And uh, that’s really what motivated me to even go to law school to begin with. I needed to decode it so I could tell all my friends.

[00:06:41] Bobby Steinbach:

It actually like brings up an interesting point for me. I’ve never told you this, but I think there’s like a future pit, not pivot, but let’s call it additional product line for the freed firm where you get more into coaching and do things at scale. to inform creatives, like what they should and shouldn’t be looking out for.

[00:06:59] Bobby Steinbach:

Everything doesn’t have to be engaging on like a strict retainer. There are different engagement models that might work for you. And I think there is like such a mass market for folks who might not have the capital to put in for whatever your minimum retainer is,

[00:07:13] Shana Fried:

but would

[00:07:13] Bobby Steinbach:

benefit from like the advice that you’re giving.

[00:07:15] Shana Fried:

Yeah, a hundred percent. I do try to, you know, speak on panels and really engage as much as I can with. I’ve done music schools and really like base level stuff, folks that are learning how to program Electronic music for example, and I’ll come in and be like this is a copyright and you know the basics, but also The industry stuff as well.

[00:07:35] Shana Fried:

So yeah, I think it was a good decision

[00:07:37] Bobby Steinbach:

I don’t know if you’re gonna have an opinion on this, but it’s like timely for us So I’m gonna ask do you have an opinion on like the way automation is being used in enforcing copyright like we are We actually just Had this happen to us, uh, sometimes you might use like a font that unknowingly isn’t trademarked or not, not, not isn’t trademarked.

[00:07:59] Bobby Steinbach:

You don’t have the license for it, right? Because there’s like all sorts of stipulations around how you can use the font and what need, what disclaimers need to be where and all these other things. Um, and there’s companies that have just sprung up. All they do is outreach and automation for sending letters, basically pay us because you’re, you’re infringing on the copyright here.

[00:08:20] Bobby Steinbach:

Do you have an opinion on like that, that tactic? Uh,

[00:08:23] Shana Fried:

the, the more broad spectrum automation where, for example, the YouTube implementation of what it’s been 15 years now or something, when they started to like track ID and stuff like that for cop for songs that are copyrighted, I liked that because how else that’s a massive, those are massive cracks that your money will fall through and a company like YouTube.

[00:08:47] Shana Fried: \should be somewhat responsible for that. That said, I’m very familiar with a few firms. Um, there’s one particular, I don’t remember their name, and I’m not gonna say it out loud, but I’ve gotten multiple letters, these are demand letters, where they claim to represent Justin Bieber, or all these people, right?

[00:09:05] Shana Fried:

And frankly, you know, and you know the drill, like, they, they don’t, right? They, they, They’ll then go to Justin Bieber and be like, Hey, I got you, you know, I got you this money. Can I get a cut? Right. Um, and I’ve gotten those and they’re super aggressive and it’s very, I do think that when it’s pointed like that and it’s seemingly sort of manipulating the rules, it feels, it feels yucky.

[00:09:28] Shana Fried:

You know, it’s not, it’s not as genuine and it doesn’t feel like it’s there to protect again. Like Justin Bieber did not hire you to represent him in this matter. Like you’re doing this because you’re just. Skimming the bottom of whatever you can find to, like, make some, make some cash.

[00:09:41] Bobby Steinbach:

So you think the issue there is that it’s not, like, directed.

[00:09:44] Bobby Steinbach:

It’s just kind of like, uh, no one’s, no one really is injured by this or has, like, found something injurious. And there’s just somebody who’s trying to bottom feed on

[00:09:52] Shana Fried: Basically.

Yeah, basically. But, but I think from a, from a higher level, there is some type of automation that is necessary. Just frankly, because there’s just so much information.

[00:10:01] Shana Fried:

And the internet’s this giant massive pit and we’ll never know.

[00:10:04] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Yeah, it seems like one is trolling and the other is just like automation on big platforms to enforce rules.

[00:10:11] Shana Fried:

Yes. I

[00:10:11] Bobby Steinbach:

think what’s hard is figuring out where the line is. Yep. That’s one of those like, yeah, where’s the line?

[00:10:16] Shana Fried:

It’s true, yeah. And, and, look, as long as, If it goes back and forth, you know, it depends on the case, I guess.

[00:10:23] Shana Fried:

But I think at the end of the day, it’s better to have The type, the, the, the sort of the big picture YouTube automation than not because for a long time folks were just, you know,

[00:10:33] Bobby Steinbach:

yeah, I agree. Uh, let’s pivot back to startups. Um, is there any advice that you’d want to give startup founders? Like what, what’s the one thing that everyone does wrong?

[00:10:42] Shana Fried:

A lot of folks will, uh, not trademark their brand. I’m just going to talk about trademarks real quick because this happens to me all the time. Um, I think it’s super important to try to secure a trademark before you really put all of your eggs in that basket. Um, I’ve unfortunately had too many, not, not the majority, but enough where you’re like, damn, you know, like I wish you weren’t six years in and decided to trademark now.

[00:11:08] Shana Fried:

Um, because it’d be great if you use this brand instead. But outside of that, I think, you know, it’s just a entrepreneurial stuff, like get, get everything in order. But that’s the one thing that I’ve just, I notice it a lot.

[00:11:21] Andrew Nasrinpay:

So you would recommend they do the trademark right from the get go as opposed to Like waiting a little bit because they feel they’re strapped for cash or these all they’re all these other things They feel are more important.

[00:11:32] Andrew Nasrinpay:

You would just recommend just doing it straight from the start

[00:11:35] Shana Fried:

I think you know not day one, maybe day 31 you know like if you really do feel like you settled on it and this feels like the brand that you’re gonna go with or There’s three of them Do three trademark searches, you know, like to have an analysis done for each of the marks that you, that you think are interesting.

[00:11:51] Shana Fried:

Frankly, you’re not going to get that trademark for a year anyway, so start now. I mean, yeah, it’s not the cheapest thing in the world, but I think it’ll save you if you wait that six years and you have to go back and you’ve got other folks that have your trademark, you got to buy it, you got to, you know, all kinds of stuff, so.

[00:12:07] Shana Fried:

It’s just something that I’ve noticed that I’m always like, oh, I’m so glad you’re doing this now. You know,

[00:12:12] Andrew Nasrinpay:

do you have any sort of horror stories that go along with that?

[00:12:16] Shana Fried:

Sure. Yeah. I, yeah, I mean, just, I, not even specifically, I’ve definitely come across multiple folks that have been in business for 10 plus years and they’re just like, Some people admitted I mean poke.

[00:12:31] Shana Fried:

Some people, wow, that’s a whole different conversation. Yeah, we’ll get there. Um, some people, frankly, shouldn’t have a trademark because they never would have gotten it in the first place, but you can always register on the supplemental registry if you need. There’s, there’s ways around it, you know, and it’s It’s just a shame.

[00:12:46] Shana Fried:

It’s this idea that you develop yourself to such an extent and somebody can come in and effectively poach the, the, the, you know, the, the value of your, of all your hard work.

[00:12:58] Bobby Steinbach:

Yeah. And I, I also think this probably comes back to like that adage of who not how you don’t have to know how to like file a trademark or do a trademark search or anything.

[00:13:08] Bobby Steinbach:

That’s why people like Shana exist. You just need to hire the right people and have it done. Like, save yourself the time and the aheady in the future.

[00:13:18] Shana Fried:

Yeah, and have the advice. Like, just have those conversations. I don’t think, and just circling back again to like my sort of mission statement for even why I practice law and I’m not in Ibiza right now, is because There’s this

[00:13:32] Bobby Steinbach:

You were just in Ibiza, weren’t you?

[00:13:33] Shana Fried:

I’m just feeling a little resentful that I’m not I’m just joking. Um, no, there’s, there’s uh, the accessibility. I feel like reaching attorneys, having this It just seems so stuffy. It seems so foreign. It seems so uncomfortable. It seems just all the things that you don’t want to ever do. Especially in the creative fields.

[00:13:56] Shana Fried:

So I just wish that there was something a little bit more approachable. I tell my clients all text me like just what let’s go get a beer, you know, like let’s talk about it as human beings It doesn’t need to be this like well, I’m gonna take some notes and we’re gonna talk about your you know, chill out You know, like let’s then I’m gonna say Oh What about your brand and if you tell me your brand is something like mean pug?

[00:14:17] Shana Fried:

I’m not gonna say hey, you should run and get that trademark tomorrow cuz Probably won’t have so much competition right away, but you know, if it’s another brand that’s like, Oh, that’s a good one. And it’s timely. And it might be like riding on a tech wave or something and you’re just like, Oh shit, you really should.

[00:14:33] Shana Fried:

Yeah. You should get that like now. Um, and the rest of it will come, you know, the other thing I’ll say is, uh, you know, independent contractors until you’re ready, ready for hiring, just, you know, stuff like that. Employment law is no joke.

[00:14:49] Bobby Steinbach:

100%. My, uh, my wife runs a therapy practice and it’s like rampant in the therapy space.

[00:14:57] Bobby Steinbach:

There’s like big, big therapy practice, like 80 plus therapists that have everybody on independent contractor status. And it’s like, um, that doesn’t qualify because they’re definitely doing things outside their scope of work, like outside their job profile. They’re being like grossly underpaid. They’re being misclassified.

[00:15:18] Bobby Steinbach:

So I, I think it, we talked to an employment lawyer a while ago and it seems like one of those things that’s so state by state in terms of it’s ludicrousness. I think he was a Massachusetts. It was Dan, Dan from a Google. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And they had like big penalties I guess on, on when there was a misclassification.

[00:15:40] Bobby Steinbach:

So it was very worth it there. I don’t know what it, do you know anything about the,

[00:15:43] Shana Fried: sure.

Yeah, I, um, I had a lot of experience with it, and I aged myself a little bit here, uh, right after the, uh, what do we call it now? The, the, the global housing market crash of 2008? Yeah, like, I know we’ve had so many, you know, horrors in the years since, but that was a big one, right?

[00:16:02] Shana Fried:

Uh, especially for labor law, because you had, you know, a whole bunch of people that lost their jobs and all kinds of stuff. And you were having these companies that were really struggling. So they would, they would most likely classify folks as contractors. And it was around that time that the Department of Labor got a little psychotic with it.

[00:16:23] Shana Fried:

Because I think they were really like missing out on a bunch of probably employment taxes. And frankly they were just trying to protect folks. But at the end of the day, it was rampant at then. So at that time they really came in and they laid out. They had already had some rules, but they really laid out this like 17 point test to analyze whether or not you’re an employee or a contractor.

[00:16:43] Shana Fried:

And, but I just remember that time that I got, oh my God, it was so many clients that the department of labor sent me this letter, you know, they’d have like an employee leave and be like, I need an unemployment. And then, sure enough, they’d be found that, yeah, you should have been an employee, not a, not a contractor.

[00:16:59] Shana Fried:

And then this stuff happened with Uber, but then I think Uber kind of got away with it, and they didn’t have to classify them as employees. So, you know, it, it, it, I’ve seen it kind of go up and down over the course of time, but I do, I, I, I do recall that particular moment in time where I was like, ah, you might as well just err on the side of employee.

[00:17:16] Bobby Steinbach:

Seems ever changing, too. Like, I think we were just hearing about some changes in, like, the exempt versus non exempt status of your W 2s. And that’s like a whole other bag of worms because many, many places categorize their employees as non exempt.

[00:17:32] Shana Fried:

Yep.

[00:17:33] Bobby Steinbach:

Incorrectly.

[00:17:35] Shana Fried:

Yeah. And,

[00:17:36] Bobby Steinbach:

uh, that’s a whole, I’m sure that’s like a bag of worms waiting to happen.

[00:17:40] Shana Fried:

Yeah, I’ve had folks that hire nannies and they’ll come to me and they’ll be like, I need an employment agreement. And I’m like, oh my god, you know, you, you should probably run this through payroll. And you should probably, you know, it’s like this really sophisticated thing that. You’re just like I just want somebody to take care of my kids.

[00:17:55] Shana Fried:

Yeah, but they’re not they’re definitely Not exempt

[00:18:03] Bobby Steinbach:

Not exempt means that they are Not entitled to overtime for hours, right? Or no, that’s exempt. Sorry. They are exempt.

[00:18:12] Shana Fried:

Yeah So the so they are entitled. So yeah, so child care providers our are entitled to overtime Even though they can still be paid salaries.

[00:18:20] Shana Fried:

So anyway, it’s like this, like kind of very nuanced thing. But yeah, I think, I think it’s the, it feels almost political sometimes where it’s like, like you said, it kind of changes as with the tides and you know, I don’t know who’s, who’s, who’s drafting those laws, but it varies. Uh, we’ll do employment law for sure.

[00:18:36] Shana Fried:

But I always draw the line at any type of, you know, wrongful, wrongful termination, litigation, anything that’s like too serious. I mean, that’s kind of like our mantra. Like, if it gets too serious, I’m not your criminal defendant’s attorney. You know, like, anything that’s like really severely going to impact your life.

[00:18:52] Shana Fried:

I, I, I’ve, I’ve never been that, that lawyer.

[00:18:57] Bobby Steinbach:

Yeah, that’s fair. Okay, well, I guess that won’t be your lie. We’re about to play Two Truths and a Lie.

[00:19:11] Bobby Steinbach:

Don’t say that you were going to be that lawyer. Right. We’ll immediately pick it out.

[00:19:15] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Okay, I will go first. I’ve ran a marathon. I have been attacked by a rabbit. And as a marketer, not all of these are a lie.

[00:19:34] Shana Fried:

Oh boy, the catch

[00:19:35] Bobby Steinbach:

all. Wait, that one’s confusing. As a marketer, why would you make

[00:19:41] Andrew Nasrinpay:

it confusing? Are all of these a lie?

[00:19:43] Andrew Nasrinpay:

It’s like a catch all one for the last one. As a

[00:19:44] Bobby Steinbach:

marketer, are all of these a lie?

[00:19:47] Andrew Nasrinpay:

As a marketer, I can only lie. Let’s say that way. Are all of them a lie? All the above. To make it a little more complicated for you. Yeah. It’s

[00:20:00] Bobby Steinbach:

are, are, are all of them a lie? Okay. Well, this is like an S N L L N L side question.

[00:20:10] Bobby Steinbach:

It is.

[00:20:11] Shana Fried:

I know I had to take apart the first part. I threw it in the trash and I’m just, did you get

[00:20:14] Bobby Steinbach:

a good LSAT score?

[00:20:15] Shana Fried:

I did. That’s was a shocking thing.

[00:20:17] Bobby Steinbach:

Oh, so you should get this.

[00:20:18] Shana Fried:

I did. I think, I think I got it. Oh, take away the first part. Forget the marketing thing. He’s basically saying I’m lying. Or am I?

[00:20:28] Shana Fried:

That’s the question.

[00:20:29] Bobby Steinbach:

Yeah, but one of them has to be a lie. One of the three things he gave is a lie. one.

[00:20:33] Shana Fried:

He was saying, I’m lying about everything.

[00:20:35] Bobby Steinbach:

Could that one be automatically disqualified as a lie?

[00:20:39] Shana Fried:

Unless the other two are, well you’re right, because then they couldn’t

[00:20:41] Bobby Steinbach: be.

Yeah, only one, that’s what I’m saying, it’s like an L set, like a It’s

[00:20:44] Shana Fried:

probably, it’s probably that one.

[00:20:46] Bobby Steinbach:

The, the lat? You got it. Okay. I’m still trying to figure out what it was that was just said.

[00:20:52] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Yeah, I wanted it to be like a, I wanted you to think all of them were a lie. And But that’s not the game.

[00:20:58] Bobby Steinbach:

That’s not the game. I know. So that So I wouldn’t have thought that. I ruined your game, Bobby, I’m sorry. You actually did, somehow.

[00:21:07] Bobby Steinbach:

It’s like a game that’s been Every time we do this game It’s like, it’s like probably a 50 year party game. And you’ve somehow ruined it. Uh Okay. Mine’s gonna be Mine’s, mine’s, mine’s a problem for the opposite reason. I find it hard to find a lie. Alright, let me think about all three of mine for a second.

[00:21:23] Bobby Steinbach:

Okay. First one. Um, I ran a marathon, uh, actually that’s a lie, you liar. All right. Sorry. Again, I was the captain of my high school soccer team. I had a surgery in second grade on my stomach and I, my favorite programming language is Python.

[00:21:53] Shana Fried:

I’m going to go with the first one.

[00:21:56] Andrew Nasrinpay:

I don’t think it was second grade.

[00:21:58] Andrew Nasrinpay:

I know you’ve had a surgery, but I’m gonna go with this. Oh, no.

[00:22:02] Bobby Steinbach:

Okay, that was better than I usually do. That was good.

[00:22:04] Shana Fried:

So you took a truth and you put a little bit of Put a little spin

[00:22:06] Bobby Steinbach:

on it. Nice.

[00:22:08] Shana Fried:

Okay.

[00:22:08] Bobby Steinbach:

True marketing fashion. Nice. Okay.

[00:22:11] Shana Fried:

Alright, I’ll do my best. Um, I have a pet bird. I DJ’d a cruise ship through a hurricane.

[00:22:19] Shana Fried:

And I proposed to my wife while skydiving.

[00:22:24] Bobby Steinbach:

I feel like it took you longer to think of the second, so I’m going to go with the second.

[00:22:30] Andrew Nasrinpay:

I’m going to go with the skydiving is the lie. Yeah,

[00:22:35] Shana Fried:

I definitely DJ’d a cruise ship that went through a hurricane.

[00:22:38] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Yeah, I thought maybe it was going to be a technicality on whether it was like a hurricane or a tropical storm or like a typhoon.

[00:22:46] Andrew Nasrinpay:

It’s

[00:22:47] Shana Fried:

my first time playing this since I was in middle school, so no, I wouldn’t have gotten that far. I don’t think

[00:22:51] Bobby Steinbach:

I played it in middle

[00:22:52] Shana Fried:

school.

[00:22:53] Bobby Steinbach:

What was the big game in middle school? Honestly, I wasn’t very fun in middle school. Probably didn’t play any games, so. Um, okay. I think that’s, that’s pretty much it for the Hot Docket Podcast.

[00:23:04] Bobby Steinbach:

Shana, thanks for coming on.

[00:23:06] Shana Fried:

Hey, lovely to hang out with you guys. Always a pleasure.

[00:23:08] Bobby Steinbach:

Yeah, you too. We gotta figure out what we’re gonna eat. Um, thanks for joining us on the Hot Docket Podcast. See you on the next one. We hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of Hot Docket. We’re your hosts, Bobby and Andrew, founders of Mean Pug, the marketing agency for ambitious law firms.

[00:23:21] Andrew Nasrinpay:

Have questions about marketing or anything we covered today? Email us at mark@meanpug.com. Be sure to subscribe to learn more.